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	<title>Comments on: Imports and the Community</title>
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	<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/</link>
	<description>Obligatory WordPress weblog</description>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/comment-page-1/#comment-1917</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 21:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/?p=166#comment-1917</guid>
		<description>@Mikel: of course the simulation is simplistic, and is missing any special features to simulate hypothetical community engagement. however, the fundamental mechanism by which import slow community growth is a plausible one.

in short, i don&#039;t think &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; imports are the problem - just badly thought-through, automated, mass imports. we should be very careful in selecting the data which is good enough to import and make sure that all of it is thoroughly checked &lt;em&gt;by a real user&lt;/em&gt; before it is committed into the database. otherwise we risk slowing community growth and putting off potential users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mikel: of course the simulation is simplistic, and is missing any special features to simulate hypothetical community engagement. however, the fundamental mechanism by which import slow community growth is a plausible one.</p>
<p>in short, i don&#8217;t think <em>all</em> imports are the problem &#8211; just badly thought-through, automated, mass imports. we should be very careful in selecting the data which is good enough to import and make sure that all of it is thoroughly checked <em>by a real user</em> before it is committed into the database. otherwise we risk slowing community growth and putting off potential users.</p>
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		<title>By: Mikel</title>
		<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/comment-page-1/#comment-1912</link>
		<dc:creator>Mikel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/?p=166#comment-1912</guid>
		<description>I have to disagree with some of the fundamental assumptions of the psychology of the agents in the model. As the maps &quot;complete&quot;, and community activity declines, perhaps it&#039;s the way community engages that needs to change. Ongoing maintenance and improvement of the map need to become a part of every day life. 

In short, I don&#039;t think imports are the problem, but our lack of ideas so far about how to make mapping fun when the map goes 1.0.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to disagree with some of the fundamental assumptions of the psychology of the agents in the model. As the maps &#8220;complete&#8221;, and community activity declines, perhaps it&#8217;s the way community engages that needs to change. Ongoing maintenance and improvement of the map need to become a part of every day life. </p>
<p>In short, I don&#8217;t think imports are the problem, but our lack of ideas so far about how to make mapping fun when the map goes 1.0.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/comment-page-1/#comment-1800</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 22:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/?p=166#comment-1800</guid>
		<description>@Richard: yes. in this post all the data is simulated. i&#039;ve posted a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community-ii/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;follow-up&lt;/a&gt; which includes some analysis of real data (for the US and Netherlands in particular).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Richard: yes. in this post all the data is simulated. i&#8217;ve posted a <a href="http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community-ii/" rel="nofollow">follow-up</a> which includes some analysis of real data (for the US and Netherlands in particular).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Weait</title>
		<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/comment-page-1/#comment-1799</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Weait</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/?p=166#comment-1799</guid>
		<description>Your simulation is interesting and certainly the graphs make a strong argument for caution in imports.  Do I understand correctly that all of the data is simulated?  

I wonder if any real data can be found to support the simulation?  It seems like a lot of work, but perhaps selecting a few hundred US counties, then extracting history data, before and after the TIGER import in the area will advise us on improvements for the simulation.  

Still, that only addresses community effects when the import is TIGER-like, but it is a start.  

There were mappers in USA before TIGER, but perhaps not a statistically significant community.  

Perhaps Netherlands data around the AND import is helpful.  Data from the current French Corine import, may help in future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your simulation is interesting and certainly the graphs make a strong argument for caution in imports.  Do I understand correctly that all of the data is simulated?  </p>
<p>I wonder if any real data can be found to support the simulation?  It seems like a lot of work, but perhaps selecting a few hundred US counties, then extracting history data, before and after the TIGER import in the area will advise us on improvements for the simulation.  </p>
<p>Still, that only addresses community effects when the import is TIGER-like, but it is a start.  </p>
<p>There were mappers in USA before TIGER, but perhaps not a statistically significant community.  </p>
<p>Perhaps Netherlands data around the AND import is helpful.  Data from the current French Corine import, may help in future.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Wood</title>
		<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/comment-page-1/#comment-1768</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Wood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:02:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/?p=166#comment-1768</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s definitely psychology at play. The first impression a visitor has when they look at our map...  will they become interested in mapping? A visitor may also decide to become a &lt;i&gt;user&lt;/i&gt; of OSM data (e.g. setting up website showing maps) which in turn feeds more community enthusiasm as Andrew says.

But maybe those two mindsets are quite different in fact. I think people judge our maps on two different metrics: &quot;Coverage&quot; and &quot;Quality&quot;. For &lt;i&gt;using&lt;/i&gt; OSM, coverage is very important and quality is quite important (depends on the usage, but in general people perhaps decide they can&#039;t use our data if they see variable coverage)  BUT for piquing somebody&#039;s curiosity and getting them involved in mapping, they&#039;re interested in great examples of beautifully mapped areas, but also inspired when they see areas with poor coverage. What they are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; inspired by, is completely uniform full coverage of a poor quality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s definitely psychology at play. The first impression a visitor has when they look at our map&#8230;  will they become interested in mapping? A visitor may also decide to become a <i>user</i> of OSM data (e.g. setting up website showing maps) which in turn feeds more community enthusiasm as Andrew says.</p>
<p>But maybe those two mindsets are quite different in fact. I think people judge our maps on two different metrics: &#8220;Coverage&#8221; and &#8220;Quality&#8221;. For <i>using</i> OSM, coverage is very important and quality is quite important (depends on the usage, but in general people perhaps decide they can&#8217;t use our data if they see variable coverage)  BUT for piquing somebody&#8217;s curiosity and getting them involved in mapping, they&#8217;re interested in great examples of beautifully mapped areas, but also inspired when they see areas with poor coverage. What they are <i>not</i> inspired by, is completely uniform full coverage of a poor quality.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew MacKinnon</title>
		<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/comment-page-1/#comment-1767</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew MacKinnon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 07:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/?p=166#comment-1767</guid>
		<description>In my opinion, this is not true. In my experience a complete map attracts more users (and thus mappers) than an incomplete map, as it is more useful to users. For example, if a map has a more-or-less complete road network imported from some government database, then it will attract users who then start making corrections, adding POIs, etc. The same is true if one hardcore user mapped a large area by him/herself - this has exactly the same effect as a data import. In contrast, if an area has little or no data, many potential users will just say &quot;OpenStreetMap is useless&quot; and not bother contributing. In addition, I don&#039;t think that contributors will generally stop mapping at a certain amount of detail (unless the map is truly 100% complete), instead they will tend to get addicted and once they have completed the map to a certain level of detail, they will start adding even more detail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, this is not true. In my experience a complete map attracts more users (and thus mappers) than an incomplete map, as it is more useful to users. For example, if a map has a more-or-less complete road network imported from some government database, then it will attract users who then start making corrections, adding POIs, etc. The same is true if one hardcore user mapped a large area by him/herself &#8211; this has exactly the same effect as a data import. In contrast, if an area has little or no data, many potential users will just say &#8220;OpenStreetMap is useless&#8221; and not bother contributing. In addition, I don&#8217;t think that contributors will generally stop mapping at a certain amount of detail (unless the map is truly 100% complete), instead they will tend to get addicted and once they have completed the map to a certain level of detail, they will start adding even more detail.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/2009/09/imports-and-the-community/comment-page-1/#comment-1766</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Sep 2009 13:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.asklater.com/matt/wordpress/?p=166#comment-1766</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Artem Dudarev. Artem Dudarev said: interesting speculation: data imports are not too good for community grows #openstreetmap http://bit.ly/IJVPh via @zerebubuth via @jokru [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Artem Dudarev. Artem Dudarev said: interesting speculation: data imports are not too good for community grows #openstreetmap <a href="http://bit.ly/IJVPh" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/IJVPh</a> via @zerebubuth via @jokru [...]</p>
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